It isn't a drive to 'make' people live, it is a drive to at least give them an opportunity to decide for themselves (and "f" it up if they so choose).

When they are 15 or so they can get bent on a lifestyle that brings a slow or quick death if they want. It is horrible to at least not offer that choice. Some say that the world sucks and they will be better off not being born is an extremely prideful statement on the part of the speaker. Who made them God?

We're kidding ourselves if we are allowing abortion to protect victims of rape or incest. That is such an infitesimally small proportion of the people. The whole issue is really wrapped up in value over life and responsibility.

While I support people's right over their own body, does that include what is obviously a living baby? We make drugs illegal - why? Because of the crimes that surround it, not the damage to the person's body. Just the same, we do not disallow something like abortion to protect the mental state of the woman that undergoes it (and they all have problems w/ it aftewards - serious ones - most of us guys are not as aware of it). Abortion would be disallowed because of the damage to those around. Namely the one 'hanging out' in the Uterus.

We are so often distracted by issues of liberty that we never discuss children being born.

FYI I almost always vote Dem (who are wrong a lot, too) - which is the party that seems to care the most about the individual. Yet they don't care about defenseless children. Odd and sad at the same time.

>It isn't a drive to 'make' people live, it is a drive to at least give them an opportunity to decide for themselves

To give the op to decide you have to first make them live.

>We're kidding ourselves if we are allowing abortion to protect victims of rape or incest. That is such an infitesimally small proportion of the people.

When you boil it down to arbitrary unstated numbers then you can push any claim you like, right?

>We make drugs illegal - why? Because of the crimes that surround it

Hmm. I think that is an easy angle to sell, but if it were true then drugs which tend to make people act more reptilian and aggressive (like alchohol) would be ILLEGAL over drugs that encourage a state of empathy and understanding (like ecstacy).

Although I am not as shady as I once was, I have done boatloads of drinking and other drugs. Drinking has screwed me over more than any illegal drug...not by a little bit either.

Yes that is just my example of what happened in my own past, but statistically I would love to see someone try to prove that marijuana creates more crime than alchohol. If it were not classified as an illegal drug it wouldn't be illegal, so if you pull those possesion crime cases out of the stats I bet alchohol beats it hands down.

There are always hidden motives, and when you boil things down to the base level questions like "why did the military test all kinds of drugs on people - often without their concent?" should raise eyebrows if it is done by the same government which talks up how bad drugs are - at least if they honestly care about the rights of individuals.

Not that I want in on you two's discussion/kicked over anthill, I'm more than happy to toss a bone in the middle of it. A quick Google search turned up:

"in a study of 1,900 abortion clients in 1987, only one woman claimed to be the victim of rape or incest."

Torres and Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?" Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988, 20:4, pp. 169-176.

Of course we could say the others lied out of shame. But then I would be pushing a claim with arbitrary, unstated numbers ; )

Aaron I agree w/ you on the booze/drug thing. Though the Lord thankfully led me out of my drug & booze induced lifestyle, I can say that

"I was 90% more likely to order a pizza when I was high than I was to commit a crime."

Larson, "What did Matt do when High?" Party Planning Perspectives, July/August 2006, 20:4, pp. 1.

Though, I am not so sure about that ecstacy = empathy & understanding thing. I have been sober around people on X and though they may perceive it as empathy it comes off like a selfish "if it feels right, do it" mentality. I don't have any numbers for that either, so take it w/ a grain of salt ; )

>I have been sober around people on X and though they may perceive it as empathy it comes off like a selfish "if it feels right, do it" mentality

I have noticed similar as well. But in general I have seen much more screwed up drunk stuff than high stuff. I have seen people that were messed up on X be on average more willing to help out others that are way to messed up on the same moreso than I have seen that effect with alchohol.

Of course my own life is a filter for my information and beliefs, but I have seen lots of the whole drunk / high scene. I am not saying that either of them are just and good, more that I think the separation is arbitrary at best.

Roger that Aaron - neither is to be applauded.

This coming from a guy who was delivered (about 2 years ago in May) from drinking every single day for about 8 years. Throw in some drug abuse in my early 20s, and I am pretty comfortable sharing w/ young people not so much how "evil" chemical abuse is, but rather how important it is to find God's purpose for their life.

Not that it is a destination to be reached, of course. But if they are moving along the right paths in the journey they find that alcohol and drugs really limits them. What do you think?

I must say that I like the new tack that the anti-drug messages are using with the deflated kids. Extremely creepy and a bit oppressive, but more effective. I remember watching the old anti-drug films in school (made in the 70s but for some reason we still had to watch them in the 80s) where they would show a kid getting ready to leap off a building after smoking pot. Even as a kid who had never tried it, my BS-ometer was going off the charts.

When kids try that first drink, joint, pill, whatever and realize they didn't go crazy or die, then they figure parents were just misleading them. At least these commercials are a bit more relevant. "Hey, you won't die, but you'll end up a loser." Of course that is an exaggeration too, but It's impossible to pick out the kids that might be most susceptible.

Hope my wife and I are prepared for all this when we start having kids : )